Linux?

[samwisekoi]

Love Apple, Hate Big Brother

I've been a Mac user since 1984. Even used a Lisa for a while. Survived many battles against corporate IT folks who wanted me to use the standard Wintel POS. Family has a bunch of iDevices, but not me. Why? They are all as closed as they can be made.

But who cares about closed phones, MP3 players or whatever? Not me.

What I do care about (and why I found and am now posting on this forum) is that, IMHO, the iPad is the first mass-market general-purpose computer that does not allow installation of software purchased from anyone except the manufacturer.

Can't run Flash on a phone? Who cares? It's a phone.

Can't connect to the USB port on a phone? Who cares? It's a phone.

Can't get software or content from yourself or the free market for a phone? Who cares? It's a phone.

But on a mass-market computer? Even Granny might want to connect a "real" keyboard to help her flip through photos. I certainly do.

So, why Linux? Why not? I agree it would degrade the user experience, but if the return was the ability to control what ran on one's own computer? I'd consider it.

Just as the existence of Apple and Linux has weakened the monopoly and ubiquity of Microsoft Windows, Linux -- or any other OS -- running on the iPad would weaken the hold Apple has on the people who purchase their hardware and software.

I think we can take it as a given that nothing will change in the way Apple treats its non-OSX customers until three things happen:

1) Steve Jobs no longer has such total control.
2) The market doesn't reward the monopoly with such a huge stock price.
3) There are alternatives to the One True Faith when using Apple products.

So, again, I agree that running Linux on an iPad would degrade the experience for any single user. But the ABILITY to install Linux on an iPad might very well improve the experience for ALL Apple users over time.

As an example, I think the volume of articles asking "is there still a reason to jailbreak your iPhone?" is an indication that Apple noticed the additional features available to the users of "jailbroken" iPhones, and countered them with enhancements in v.4 of the phone OS.

I think that similar improvements -- as well as freedom -- would come from providing purchasers of iPads the ability to boot, install, and run the OS of their choice.

Anyhow, I don't care if Big Brother controls my phone. I do care if Big Brother controls my computer.

I want the ability -- in a free market -- to buy the best product available, and then use it the way I see fit. Including loading applications that are not approved and sold by The Ministry of Truth (Google that.)

Again, IMHO, the iPad is the first mass-market general-purpose computer that does not allow installation of software purchased from anyone except the manufacturer.

And that is a Bad Thing.

- Sam

 

[gentlefury]

I've been a Mac user since 1984. Even used a Lisa for a while. Survived many battles against corporate IT folks who wanted me to use the standard Wintel POS. Family has a bunch of iDevices, but not me. Why? They are all as closed as they can be made.

But who cares about closed phones, MP3 players or whatever? Not me.

What I do care about (and why I found and am now posting on this forum) is that, IMHO, the iPad is the first mass-market general-purpose computer that does not allow installation of software purchased from anyone except the manufacturer.

Can't run Flash on a phone? Who cares? It's a phone.

Can't connect to the USB port on a phone? Who cares? It's a phone.

Can't get software or content from yourself or the free market for a phone? Who cares? It's a phone.

But on a mass-market computer? Even Granny might want to connect a "real" keyboard to help her flip through photos. I certainly do.

So, why Linux? Why not? I agree it would degrade the user experience, but if the return was the ability to control what ran on one's own computer? I'd consider it.

Just as the existence of Apple and Linux has weakened the monopoly and ubiquity of Microsoft Windows, Linux -- or any other OS -- running on the iPad would weaken the hold Apple has on the people who purchase their hardware and software.

I think we can take it as a given that nothing will change in the way Apple treats its non-OSX customers until three things happen:

1) Steve Jobs no longer has such total control.
2) The market doesn't reward the monopoly with such a huge stock price.
3) There are alternatives to the One True Faith when using Apple products.

So, again, I agree that running Linux on an iPad would degrade the experience for any single user. But the ABILITY to install Linux on an iPad might very well improve the experience for ALL Apple users over time.

As an example, I think the volume of articles asking "is there still a reason to jailbreak your iPhone?" is an indication that Apple noticed the additional features available to the users of "jailbroken" iPhones, and countered them with enhancements in v.4 of the phone OS.

I think that similar improvements -- as well as freedom -- would come from providing purchasers of iPads the ability to boot, install, and run the OS of their choice.

Anyhow, I don't care if Big Brother controls my phone. I do care if Big Brother controls my computer.

I want the ability -- in a free market -- to buy the best product available, and then use it the way I see fit. Including loading applications that are not approved and sold by The Ministry of Truth (Google that.)

Again, IMHO, the iPad is the first mass-market general-purpose computer that does not allow installation of software purchased from anyone except the manufacturer.

And that is a Bad Thing.

- Sam

Your actually completely wrong! iPad and iPhone work on an old Unix platform. Repositories. Apple's repo is the app store. Apple does not code the apps. There are tens of thousands of apps available all created by third party vendors. As a Linux guy do you go to a website to download a tar ball extract and compile it or do you use apt-get install?? Or even a graphical ui version that is very similar to the app store.

If you want unapproved apps it takes about 6 seconds to jailbreak and use cydia, or rock.

As for granny plugging in a keyboard...well she can get the apple cradle, or any Bluetooth keyboard, or if she really wants it she could get the camera adapter and plug any USB keyboard of her choosing!

How about either researching, or perhaps even using a product before going on a forum to bad mouth it....sure I get it, apple makes a good product and controls quality so they are big brother and the enemy. Linux is all open source and a pain to set up...but they are the good guys because they don't profit...get over it, use what works best!

 

[iBold]

Sam, your right Apple is becomming what we disliked About Microsoft, but because of this Apple continiues to make great products, and hackers and crackers wil alwayse be there to keep THE marketing sharp...at THE end its all about money and protecting your goods, Thats what i whould do......

 

[pallentx]

So why not consider to buy a JooJoo witch is more open and free for your 3 local app’s you can’t use in your iPad … the iPad is not made for the nerd is made for the rest of us and we are satisfied with … so don’t use your mind thinking just buy linux or android tablet based … the market is waiting you

Apart from the Joojoo (which has a crappy processor) none of those really exist. I was holding out to see what HP was going to release, but when they cancelled the project, I decided to get an iPad. When more hardware manufacturers get more options to the market, the interest in having linux on an iPad will subside. Right now, Apple has the most portable, and most affordable slate hardware for sale. There are some random things floating around like the joojoo, but people know that Apple hardware will be top quality and well-built, so its an intriguing option. The really useful Windows Slates out there are $2000-3000.

I have no interest in running Linux on the ipad, but I can think of a lot of scenarios where it would be nice. Companies that want to deploy proprietary software, and lots of other niche uses could benefit from a full OS and no controls or approval process to deploy apps.

BTW, Linux is sort of already on the iPad

 

[Bremen]

I've been a Mac user since 1984. Even used a Lisa for a while. Survived many battles against corporate IT folks who wanted me to use the standard Wintel POS. Family has a bunch of iDevices, but not me. Why? They are all as closed as they can be made.

But who cares about closed phones, MP3 players or whatever? Not me.

What I do care about (and why I found and am now posting on this forum) is that, IMHO, the iPad is the first mass-market general-purpose computer that does not allow installation of software purchased from anyone except the manufacturer.

Can't run Flash on a phone? Who cares? It's a phone.

Can't connect to the USB port on a phone? Who cares? It's a phone.

Can't get software or content from yourself or the free market for a phone? Who cares? It's a phone.

But on a mass-market computer? Even Granny might want to connect a "real" keyboard to help her flip through photos. I certainly do.

So, why Linux? Why not? I agree it would degrade the user experience, but if the return was the ability to control what ran on one's own computer? I'd consider it.

Just as the existence of Apple and Linux has weakened the monopoly and ubiquity of Microsoft Windows, Linux -- or any other OS -- running on the iPad would weaken the hold Apple has on the people who purchase their hardware and software.

I think we can take it as a given that nothing will change in the way Apple treats its non-OSX customers until three things happen:

1) Steve Jobs no longer has such total control.
2) The market doesn't reward the monopoly with such a huge stock price.
3) There are alternatives to the One True Faith when using Apple products.

So, again, I agree that running Linux on an iPad would degrade the experience for any single user. But the ABILITY to install Linux on an iPad might very well improve the experience for ALL Apple users over time.

As an example, I think the volume of articles asking "is there still a reason to jailbreak your iPhone?" is an indication that Apple noticed the additional features available to the users of "jailbroken" iPhones, and countered them with enhancements in v.4 of the phone OS.

I think that similar improvements -- as well as freedom -- would come from providing purchasers of iPads the ability to boot, install, and run the OS of their choice.

Anyhow, I don't care if Big Brother controls my phone. I do care if Big Brother controls my computer.

I want the ability -- in a free market -- to buy the best product available, and then use it the way I see fit. Including loading applications that are not approved and sold by The Ministry of Truth (Google that.)

Again, IMHO, the iPad is the first mass-market general-purpose computer that does not allow installation of software purchased from anyone except the manufacturer.

And that is a Bad Thing.

- Sam

Like you I want the ability, in a free market, to buy the best product available. The best available for me is the iPad. I understand it is not so with you. So whats wrong we me having available to me the product I want? Why can't you enjoy one type of product, and me another? Why sign up to a website to dis the product I choose to use? I would not dis your choice, so why do you feel the need to dis mine? Am I supposed to change my mind and get a netbook and put Ubuntu on it? Is that what you want me to do? Why is it any of your business what product a company makes, and the people that choose to buy their products?

 

[Hasty]

Agree totally with Bremen.

Why try and install a linux distro however hacked into something thats not designed to run it?
The iPad is a deliberate compromise of functions and form to achieve acceptable goals of convenience, portability and battery life.
Lots has been left out to create a marketable product.

Jobs is very up front about apple. Roughly paraphrased from his D8 interview... If people like what we make they will buy it. If not they won't. The market will decide.

Frankly big brother controlling my phone and what and to whom I speak is far more worrying than the limits of a home pc.....

 

[Bremen]

I wanted to add a few more points, I had to run off to a meeting

Why do some people think that every product has to run every OS? Why should Apple design a product to run Linux, and Android, and WinMo, and OSX, and Windows 7? Since Android is closed to the 200,000 or so iOS apps, is it "closed" and "controlling"? What about Linux... You are limited to the software you get from a closed form of app store. To run Windows programs (poorly I might add) you have to run a hack (wine) on Linux. Why is Linux so closed? Why can't I run Wii and Xbox games on a PS3? I guess Sony is closed and controlling. Why can't I read PDF files on a Kindle? Why can't I put Ford parts on my Toyota? Why can't I put Shick blades in my Gillette Razor?

This "open" and "closed" thing is really a matter of perception. I like the huge selection of Apps I have to choose from on my iPad. You like the huge selection you have for your Linux devices... it's all good.... You can't run iOS on your Linux, and I can't run Linux apps on my iPad..... so guess what? It is better for me to buy an iPad, and better for you to buy a Linux box......

Just checked the date on this Sam's one post... appears he was a hit and run....

 

[pallentx]

Why try and install a linux distro however hacked into something thats not designed to run it?

Because the hardware is good and there may be some advantage to running other software on that hardware.

 

[pallentx]

I wanted to add a few more points, I had to run off to a meeting

Why do some people think that every product has to run every OS? Why should Apple design a product to run Linux, and Android, and WinMo, and OSX, and Windows 7? Since Android is closed to the 200,000 or so iOS apps, is it "closed" and "controlling"? What about Linux... You are limited to the software you get from a closed form of app store. To run Windows programs (poorly I might add) you have to run a hack (wine) on Linux. Why is Linux so closed? Why can't I run Wii and Xbox games on a PS3? I guess Sony is closed and controlling. Why can't I read PDF files on a Kindle? Why can't I put Ford parts on my Toyota? Why can't I put Shick blades in my Gillette Razor?

This "open" and "closed" thing is really a matter of perception. I like the huge selection of Apps I have to choose from on my iPad. You like the huge selection you have for your Linux devices... it's all good.... You can't run iOS on your Linux, and I can't run Linux apps on my iPad..... so guess what? It is better for me to buy an iPad, and better for you to buy a Linux box......

Just checked the date on this Sam's one post... appears he was a hit and run....

I agree. Apple should have no obligation to facilitate someone loading linux or anything else on their hardware. I would be interested to see it done, but that's not Apple's problem.

As for open vs closed, there is a difference with Apple. Microsoft makes no restrictions as to what can run on a windows computer. Intel makes no restrictions as to what software can be run on their hardware. Linux has even fewer restrictions - their source code is public. You can copy it, alter it, and do anything you want with it. I can write software for those platforms and post it publicly to my website and people are free to take it and use it if want to allow that. The only limits to what can be done with these things are technical limits. No one says, "that is possible, but we wont allow it."

I think every company has the right to decide how open or not they want to be. Apple's engineers put the time and resources into creating th iPad. They have the right to make available whatever they want. You have the right to buy it or not.

But still, if someone figured out how, that could be fun too...

 

[mark121]

I am a long time Linux user, and just got an iPad as a gift. It is a beautiful piece of hardware: light weight, good size, crisp display. I was a little surprised when I turned it on, and it wouldn't let me do anything until I connected to a computer running iTunes. There is no iTunes for Linux, so I wound up having to take it to a nearby Apple retail store (fortunately, there was one close by). Even though I didn't have a reservation to talk to one of the "geniuses", one of them was kind enough to activate it for me without making me come back later.

As far as playing with it, all I can say is *major culture shock*. In Linux, you tell your computer what you want it to do, and it (usually) does it. The iPad gives you some choices of what it will let you do, and that's it. Browse the filesystem? Nope. Move files between your Linux laptop and the iPad? Sure, you can put them on the iPad, but it won't let you see them. It's nice and easy to use if all you expect to do is to tap icons and see what happens. I think that part of the problem is that I don't care much for GUIs even under Linux. I tend to use the command line quite a bit, and always have one or two console windows open whenever I'm working.

Despite the hype that Apple products are so easy to use that you don't need a user manual, I'm finding it a little hard to make the paradigm shift. I suppose I might have to befriend an Apple-head, and have him show me what it can do. In the meantime, I will be looking at iPad/Linux compatibility software, to make the iPad more flexible for the way I want to use it. It sure makes it clear why the computing world is divided into a fairly small population of Apple fans vs everyone else. One of the reasons I dumped Windows, aside from the obvious reason that it is a piece of shit, is the "it's our way or the highway" attitude from M$. The Linux philosophy is more along the lines of, "if you can make it work, go for it!" It seems that the attitude from Apple is going to be closer to M$'s, but perhaps a bit friendlier.

I think I'm going to have a lot of fun with the iPad, though I'm still early on the learning curve, and I'm sure there will be some significant obstacles ahead in getting it to integrate with my existing home network. But then, that's part of what makes computers so much fun.

 

[Delirium]

When i was a little boy an uncle gave me a computer and said: "it will do what you want it to do if you learn how to command it". So i broke it in about two months, even opened the darn thing messing with the boards.
People are curious, and it's an amazing thing. Curiosity and experimentation open the way to great things. When the Catholic Church was raging the first inquisition, it was unlawful to study copses, and people unlearned sulture, they burned deep cuts and many people died of gangrene and inflamations.
About ipad. Well, i have one to use on my studies (psychology). Takes notes, to do list, keynote, pages, mail and safari for searchs. The battery life is awesome. It fits my backpack too well. But as any cientist would know, if you want to use computer for science, gotta use linux.
For me Ipod is an amazing product because it's a quality forged easy to use music player, not a computer by a long shot. Objective, straight, clear, music player. iPad is not a computer. It's an eletronic device capable of some usability. It's not even capable of multitasking if you dont jailbreak. It's not capable of even wifi updating with itunes. It's not capable of functioning without a desktop/laptop with itunes. It makes me rmember the first laptops.
But what annoys me is the ideal of hacking it opens it's capabilities and, as a consequence, opens the market of consumes, opens the numbers of solutions and possibilities of new softwares. But apple do not want it to be so.
But what annoys me really really really is.. and was enough to make me give up the iphone (with htc desire running android now) and will give up ipad as soon as the samsung pad with android come to store is, apples new policy. They choose the softwares allowed on store (nothing new here), they can come into ipad and iphone any time they want and run the kill switch erasing apps, data and apple store accounts without giving any reason (institucionalized blackhat action), if you sue, the maximum penalty for apple is $50 and they can sue you for the full weight of the law. If they so choose to erase the programs i use on psychology, i will lose so freaking much. And you may say: just run a backup weekly. and so i should run a system out of fear??.. not fear of a hardware failure, but of the company i paid for the product entering the now MY ipad and erasing my stuff that includes apps i paid for?? so i buy the hardware but rent its use?? Thats how apple is preparing for the new capabilities of 'on the clouds' technology.. i should as well subscribe for a communist govern, may even move to Cuba.
ps: this new policy came with the iphoneos 4th generation to the iphones, ipads, ipod touchs and new itunes. After i alredy bought the thingies, gave up even mobileme.

 

[Churka]

Ubuntu rocks

 

[jrrk]

Hacking the iPad

Dear Delirium,
If you get yourself Xcode+iOS SDK 3.2, you can do pretty much whatever you want in the way of iPad programs. You can even try your programs for free on a simulator (if you have obtained Mac OSX 10.6 already). A license to distribute your programs via the Apple Store (subject to acceptance) is $99 per year which is not a lot compared to all the software you get. I doubt if they make money on this aspect. It is perfectly possible to implement a command line on the iPad this way. But why would you do that, except to get compatibility with legacy code.

 

[peterino]

iTunes for Linux

There is no iTunes for Linux, so I wound up having to take it to a nearby Apple retail store (fortunately, there was one close by).

There is an iTunes for Linux: It is called gtkTunes. I have installed it recently (after winning, guess what, an iPad) on Ubuntu Lucid. Activating your iPad doesn't work with it though (at least it didn't work for me), but files transfers and the like should do it. There is also gtkPod which I'd guess could work for the iPad. And then, I've read iTunes works with Wine on Linux too. (Google for "How to Download iTunes in Linux Ubuntu" - I'm not allowed to post links yet)

The main pain though is that Apple is controlling you through iTunes and the AppStore. You install some apps, they track you. You buy some music, they track. I wish this was not the case.

 

[samwisekoi]

I made my point poorly, it seems.

Just checked the date on this Sam's one post... appears he was a hit and run....

Nah, it was a serious post, but I decided to read updates via e-mail and go back to posting on Linux forums.

From a hardware perspective, the iPad (and the new Air) remain top-notch. (Well, the Air could use more CPU, but heat is a real issue.) Anyhow, I would love to augment my Linux boxes with a tablet computer; and the iPad remains the best one.

But the issues of a closed system/mandatory jailbreak coupled with the comments of mark121 and Delirium make the OS-binding even less attractive.

VM370 was a useful OS when Apple released the 1984 ad. Now Apple seems to have come back to the very spot IBM held in 1980 with corporate-controlled software.

Anyhow, the iPad is a wonderful tablet computer, and for people who want to do the things allowed/supported, it is a great buy. For others, it may still be wonderful, but perhaps not such a great buy.

But my main point, which I apparently made poorly, is that the iPad seems to me to be the first modern general-purpose computer that -- unless you void the warranty -- mandates installation only of software purchased from its maker.

- Sam